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Offline LucasDaltro  
#1 Posted : Thursday, August 25, 2011 11:14:35 PM(UTC)
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Ok I can develop a game on windows,but and about publish?Will I need a mac to publish it?

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Offline zato_1one  
#2 Posted : Thursday, August 25, 2011 11:27:14 PM(UTC)
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Copy from the faqs: "Develop completely under Windows: No need to buy Macs for the whole team and to learn new tools to do an iPhone game. Use your PC and your favourite development tools"

So, no. You don't need a Mac. You only need multi-platform license to publish your game to other platform besides Window.
Offline LucasDaltro  
#3 Posted : Thursday, August 25, 2011 11:31:47 PM(UTC)
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So the buys on Mobile Bits have a contract with apple?Because in Unreal Engine 3 you can make the game on windows but need a mac to publish it on app store
Offline smbdie  
#4 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2011 7:38:22 AM(UTC)
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Building process passes on Mobile Bits server, not on your computer)
Maybe i'm wrong
Offline Benjamin  
#5 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2011 10:07:06 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Lucas Daltro Go to Quoted Post
So the buys on Mobile Bits have a contract with apple?Because in Unreal Engine 3 you can make the game on windows but need a mac to publish it on app store


Well, there are two possibilities. But in any case you need a license/account/whatever for every part of software or service you want to use (no matter if you know about it or not).

1. You just use one of our Apple accounts (e.g. we could make an shared Indie or Student account for Delta Engine Games). We currently have no plans to do so (too many complications), we might do so if there are easier possibilities.

2. You need your own Apple Account (costs $99 per year), but you don't actually need a Mac. Same goes for MonoTouch, currently you would need a license of that as well (see http://DeltaEngine.net/Licensing ) and again, you don't need a Mac for that. Now all you have to do to sign and deploy your game is to upload the Certificate and enter the ids. The servers (one of them is a Mac) will handle the rest.

We might also include a third option for Professionals to build and test own their own with a Mac because we currently don't have Debugging possible and writing against iOS libraries is not easy without a Mac. But maybe it is a better idea to not do this and just solve one problem at a time.

Edited by user Friday, August 26, 2011 10:08:02 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline LucasDaltro  
#6 Posted : Friday, August 26, 2011 11:44:01 PM(UTC)
LucasDaltro

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Thanks for the answer so now my development will be very,very cheapLove
Offline saviilsy  
#7 Posted : Monday, August 29, 2011 2:16:25 PM(UTC)
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Hmm,

Hopefully You manage to get some deal with Xamarin.
MonoTouch and Mono For Android are not exatly what You would call cheap (399$ per year).

So if I would want to create a game for Android and iPhone that would cost 800$ + Delta Engine costs...

You could try to reason with Xamarin that DE users do not use directly their products - it is just a part of the building process.

I gladly want to support Xamarin as Mono is a great platform, however for indies it's a little costly :|
Offline Benjamin  
#8 Posted : Monday, August 29, 2011 3:10:15 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Santtu Syrjä Go to Quoted Post
Hopefully You manage to get some deal with Xamarin.
MonoTouch and Mono For Android are not exatly what You would call cheap (399$ per year).

So if I would want to create a game for Android and iPhone that would cost 800$ + Delta Engine costs...

You could try to reason with Xamarin that DE users do not use directly their products - it is just a part of the building process.

I gladly want to support Xamarin as Mono is a great platform, however for indies it's a little costly :|


That is exactly why we speak with the guys from Xamarin. Dunno if it is announced yet, but a indie version of Xamarin is also coming soon for a fraction of the cost (maybe 100-150 dollar?), so even if we don't find a good deal, you still can develop on all platforms and then decide for yourself when you need a Xamarin license for iOS for example (and for release you would also need an AppStore Account from Apple).
Offline zato_1one  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, August 30, 2011 9:30:21 PM(UTC)
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It would be really bad if I need to buy license from both Delta Engine and Xamarin in order to build game for iOS and Android. Delta Engine may look less appeal that way. Sad
Offline Benjamin  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, August 30, 2011 10:05:09 PM(UTC)
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Well, that is just they way it is, Xamarin will not be the only framework or library that you need for most games. No matter if you use any other engine, you might need some commercial libraries sooner or later (for physics, input, multimedia, graphics, content, etc. stuff). We are still confident to find some arrangement that makes it easier to have less dependencies. On some platforms you can go 100% open source code (like Windows) if you don't want to use any commercial or proprietary software, on others this will not be possible (e.g. WP7 and XNA will stay this way, but at least the SDKs are free to use).

Also remember that the Delta Engine does not really depend on any library or framework, we can easily switch out any part of the engine. Currently Xamarin is the best choice for .NET on iOS and Android, so we happily use it. It is great for application development (well, you still need a Mac and your code is pretty low level, but some people like that), but horrible for game development, nothing works, nothing is supported. So I don't think anyone wants to build everything on their own directly for Android or iOS (if you want to do that, you would be better of using Xamarin directly, there is no need for the Delta Engine then).
Offline hkarapuu  
#11 Posted : Thursday, September 1, 2011 10:04:35 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Benjamin Nitschke Go to Quoted Post
Currently Xamarin is the best choice for .NET on iOS and Android, [...] but horrible for game development, nothing works, nothing is supported.


Can you elaborate a bit on that? What kind of difficulties you encountered?

We are currently considering between DeltaEngine, or going "naked" with raw MonoTouch/MonoDroid (or staying/resuming with Unity). So a good time for you to make a sales pitch how much time DeltaEngine is going to save us :)

-Henri


Offline hkarapuu  
#12 Posted : Thursday, September 1, 2011 10:24:09 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Benjamin Nitschke Go to Quoted Post
We might also include a third option for Professionals to build and test own their own with a Mac because we currently don't have Debugging possible and writing against iOS libraries is not easy without a Mac. But maybe it is a better idea to not do this and just solve one problem at a time.


Did i understand correctly that you are saying that your SaaS offering would be responsible for making the entire build? (I thought that it would be just preparing and optimizing content).

I don't think that a model where the iOS build is done entirely on the server is going to work well, at least in more complex cases. Unity is years more mature, and there are still frequent build issues with it that require going under the hood. And that is a lot easier with locally run xcode compared to receiving some error email from build server.

Also, lack of debugging would be a complete show stopper for us.

-Henri
Offline Benjamin  
#13 Posted : Thursday, September 1, 2011 10:45:33 AM(UTC)
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Well, I have not used Unity for years. We used it in 2009 for a few iPhone games and prototypes and it is still used by our iSkat game, which is played quite a bit still even after all these years. But back then the main problem was getting used to the programming in the Unity Editor (even if doing everything in Visual Studio, to test you have to go back to Unity), which is really a problem if you want to do test driven development. Also the performance was horrible and every upgrade unity got multiple times faster, which is something you will never see in an engine like Unreal or CryEngine (it is already optimized a lot and they can only give you a few percent better in some area).

But Unity3D is far too successful to convince any Unity fan to not use Unity, that is not our audience yet. We don't even have comparable tools in the beta yet and the earliest pitch we should make is at version 1.0 (when we have plenty of tools and more showcase games).

Then there is obviously doing it all by yourself in whatever native language required for each device (Objective-C for iOS, Java for Android, XNA for WP7, PC whatever, etc.), which is an easy pitch because no one likes to do that. We have written several Objective-C games and while it is true that you can get used to it, most .NET developers will never like it and it takes ages to do simple things (at least simple in .NET terms where the framework already provides so much).

So finally there is Xamarin, a great toolkit to allow writing .NET applications on iOS and Android, which is great if you want to write a native iOS application, but you don't like Objective-C and much rather use .NET. However it is still very low level. If you have ever worked with Xamarin (or formerly MonoTouch) you know that you still need a Mac, you still need an iPhone, you still need to learn all the little details about iOS devices, you still need to know the tools on the Mac (XCode, Device Simulators, Profilers, etc.) and worst of all: You still need to learn about all the little problems and issues iOS, Cocoa and whatever frameworks you want to use all have. If you like it close to the metal and you want to code at this level and do everything youself, it is certainly the way to go. I would even argue that if you really want to write just an iOS game and you don't mind Objective-C you don't even need Xamarin because it won't help you in any way except that it provides the .NET framework.

Now the main issue is something else. We think game developers just want to focus on their game ideas and implement cool shaders, rendering tricks, click some UI together and get to a testable game asap. This is not possible if you start from scratch and solve all the little low level problems one by one. That is exactly the reason engines have been so successful in the last years (especially Unity and Unreal). We try to bring tools to Windows programmers (which is just a bigger audience than any other programmer group) and let them decide what they want to use. We obviously provide some modules to make things work (each platform has Graphics, Input, Multimedia modules and most Physics modules work on all platforms, etc.), but the programmer can decide himself if he wants to change rendering to deferred or not, use this multimedia API or not, focus on just one platform or get them all, use this physics engine or not, etc. There is just not a solution that fits all problems, but if the solution is flexible enough you might still get there much easier than starting from scratch.

Lets take one example to make all my crazy talk above a little more useful and concrete: If you want to write an OpenGL 3D game in .NET for the Android using Xamarin, then you are in a world of trouble. Maybe the framework gets better over the years, but the current state is that you cannot even create or use a Depth-Buffer AT ALL. I posted this 9 months ago as a bug, but it has not been resolved and there are many other issues like it (input crashing, OpenGL is not completely implemented, etc.): https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=662079
So obviously the Mono for Android team has no time to fix game programmer problems as most of their customers don't need it, but in order to make a game like SoulCraft work, we needed to fix all that problems and make it as easy as possible for game programmers to just write their game in Windows, then let the Content by converted by the ContentSystem and let BuildSystem handle all the fixes and issues automatically. And whatever features will be added in the future will automatically apply to everyone using our services.
Offline Benjamin  
#14 Posted : Thursday, September 1, 2011 10:50:30 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Henri Karapuu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Benjamin Nitschke Go to Quoted Post
We might also include a third option for Professionals to build and test own their own with a Mac because we currently don't have Debugging possible and writing against iOS libraries is not easy without a Mac. But maybe it is a better idea to not do this and just solve one problem at a time.


Did i understand correctly that you are saying that your SaaS offering would be responsible for making the entire build? (I thought that it would be just preparing and optimizing content).

I don't think that a model where the iOS build is done entirely on the server is going to work well, at least in more complex cases. Unity is years more mature, and there are still frequent build issues with it that require going under the hood. And that is a lot easier with locally run xcode compared to receiving some error email from build server.

Also, lack of debugging would be a complete show stopper for us.


Currently we are focusing on the tools (ContentManager for all the Content and then the Launcher for the BuildSystem) and we won't make major leaps this month (for v0.9.0) allows a complex feature like debugging remotely. So that is why we might offer a processed solution for professionals that already have a Mac, XCode, MonoDevelop, Xamarin, etc. to give them the option to debug their game natively on the platform and add iOS libraries directly until we have better options available.

For v1.0 it is obviously planned to make things a lot easier and we will try to give full debugging and testing experience right in Visual Studio, no matter which platform you are targeting and testing, we are just not there yet.
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