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Delta Engine Public Beta v0.9.1
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Offline Benjamin  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, November 1, 2011 6:30:23 PM(UTC)
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Short update on the v0.9.1 of the Delta Engine Beta: We are currently working on the final bits and are doing some testing of our new content and build server functionality. The version is expected to come out later this week. It will support mobile (Windows Phone 7) and desktop (Windows PC) building and deployment.

Sadly we also have some bad news about building applications for iOS and Android, which is not possible in v0.9.1 yet. For this reason the Marketplace and iOS/Android builds will coming in v0.9.2 next month. While we will have support for those platforms in v0.9.2 (coming in the first week of December 2011), we have currently no easy way to automatically build and deploy applications and games for those platforms as the compiler we are using (by Xamarin) does not allow it yet. We are still negotiating and we will provide alternative solutions in v0.9.2. Feel free to contact us if you want to deploy your Delta Engine application on iOS or Android, which is certainly possible, but we have to find custom solutions case by case until this is all figured out. Btw: Xamarin is not the only way to support Delta Engine applications on iOS or Android, it is currently just the easiest solution for us, but we will find alternative solutions in the future and try to bring the best and easiest solutions for developers in the market!

Update 2011-11-18: Version 0.9.1 is now available at the download site. Many things have changed, check out the new topic for Nightly Releases for details!

Edited by user Friday, November 18, 2011 7:23:55 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Offline Ecco  
#2 Posted : Saturday, November 5, 2011 12:32:37 PM(UTC)
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..thanks for update Benjamin..i would like to know, whats going on with XBOX 360 support, as no information is provided about it??
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Offline Benjamin  
#3 Posted : Saturday, November 5, 2011 3:46:26 PM(UTC)
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Well, since we have XNA support on Windows, Windows Phone 7 and Silverlight, supporting Xbox 360 as well is no big issue. We have done some tests last year to get things up and running (even testing natively without XNA directly using the XDK), but since then Xbox 360 was not on our priority list.

We will focus more on the non-mobile platforms after v0.9.2, when we have all major mobile platforms covered.
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Offline Benjamin  
#4 Posted : Sunday, November 6, 2011 3:31:51 AM(UTC)
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Little update about the current progress: We still have some bugs open we like to fix, especially with the new content format and build platforms. So the release will take a few more days, sorry!
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Offline mikehill2003  
#5 Posted : Sunday, November 6, 2011 11:27:28 PM(UTC)
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How will the Android/iOS builds work? Are they compiled in "the cloud," or can we use local tools (xcode, android ndk) to compile them?

If they are "in the cloud," what can DeltaEngine users do if the servers go out?
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Offline Benjamin  
#6 Posted : Monday, November 7, 2011 11:45:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mike Go to Quoted Post
How will the Android/iOS builds work? Are they compiled in "the cloud," or can we use local tools (xcode, android ndk) to compile them?

If they are "in the cloud," what can DeltaEngine users do if the servers go out?


Both is possible. We currently focus all of our engine to making it all work in the cloud with all the different options and difficulties. Making it possible locally is just a matter of sending modified files back instead of doing the actually compiling and packaging in the cloud.

In either case when you are offline or cannot reach the Delta Engine services none of the cloud features will be available (content conversion, other platforms, etc.). We plan to release local Delta Engine Services for v1.0, but currently going through the cloud is the only option.
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mikehill2003 on 11/7/2011(UTC)
Offline mikehill2003  
#7 Posted : Monday, November 7, 2011 4:05:20 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Benjamin Nitschke (DeltaEngine) Go to Quoted Post

In either case when you are offline or cannot reach the Delta Engine services none of the cloud features will be available (content conversion, other platforms, etc.). We plan to release local Delta Engine Services for v1.0, but currently going through the cloud is the only option.

ThumpUp Awesome. Is there a performance difference between Android and iOS like there used to be with Unity?
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Offline Benjamin  
#8 Posted : Monday, November 7, 2011 4:38:34 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mike Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Benjamin Nitschke (DeltaEngine) Go to Quoted Post

In either case when you are offline or cannot reach the Delta Engine services none of the cloud features will be available (content conversion, other platforms, etc.). We plan to release local Delta Engine Services for v1.0, but currently going through the cloud is the only option.

ThumpUp Awesome. Is there a performance difference between Android and iOS like there used to be with Unity?


To be honest we don't know yet. All of our tests and sample games are quite simple and run fine. The most performance problems we had to solve were for actual games (ZombieParty, SoulCraft, etc.), which have their own issues we tried to solve best for each platform. For example in SoulCraft using the amount of high polygon objects and textures is just too much for an older iPad or iPhone and needs to be reduced to make it run at 30fps, which is something that is not 100% automated yet (thats the reason we have not included 3D content in the engine release yet), but we know were to do what.

There are plenty of knobs and settings to be configured to reach the best performance possible on each target platform. The question is if you want to live with less fps, with blurrier textures or with fewer effect particles, or if your game runs fine out of the box and what you can add to make it more appealing (again, all of our sample games are so simple, they run fine everywhere).
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mikehill2003 on 11/7/2011(UTC)
Offline saviilsy  
#9 Posted : Monday, November 7, 2011 8:28:37 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Benjamin Nitschke (DeltaEngine) Go to Quoted Post
Sadly we also have some bad news about building applications for iOS and Android, which is not possible in v0.9.1 yet. For this reason the Marketplace and iOS/Android builds will coming in v0.9.2 next month. While we will have support for those platforms in v0.9.2 (coming in the first week of December 2011), we have currently no easy way to automatically build and deploy applications and games for those platforms as the compiler we are using (by Xamarin) does not allow it yet. We are still negotiating and we will provide alternative solutions in v0.9.2. Feel free to contact us if you want to deploy your Delta Engine application on iOS or Android, which is certainly possible, but we have to find custom solutions case by case until this is all figured out. Btw: Xamarin is not the only way to support Delta Engine applications on iOS or Android, it is currently just the easiest solution for us, but we will find alternative solutions in the future and try to bring the best and easiest solutions for developers in the market!


I'm curious of what other solutions there are?

As far as I know, Xamarin(mono based) compilers are the best and most mature out there. I surely hope You can come up with a solution with Xamarin.
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Offline Benjamin  
#10 Posted : Monday, November 7, 2011 8:50:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Santtu Syrjä Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Benjamin Nitschke (DeltaEngine) Go to Quoted Post
Sadly we also have some bad news about building applications for iOS and Android, which is not possible in v0.9.1 yet. For this reason the Marketplace and iOS/Android builds will coming in v0.9.2 next month. While we will have support for those platforms in v0.9.2 (coming in the first week of December 2011), we have currently no easy way to automatically build and deploy applications and games for those platforms as the compiler we are using (by Xamarin) does not allow it yet. We are still negotiating and we will provide alternative solutions in v0.9.2. Feel free to contact us if you want to deploy your Delta Engine application on iOS or Android, which is certainly possible, but we have to find custom solutions case by case until this is all figured out. Btw: Xamarin is not the only way to support Delta Engine applications on iOS or Android, it is currently just the easiest solution for us, but we will find alternative solutions in the future and try to bring the best and easiest solutions for developers in the market!


I'm curious of what other solutions there are?

As far as I know, Xamarin(mono based) compilers are the best and most mature out there. I surely hope You can come up with a solution with Xamarin.


Again, we are fully commited to Xamarin and everything in our engine works fine with MonoTouch and Mono for Android. We just don't think Xamarin is the right solution for every single user of the Delta Engine. Many users will not require all the Xamarin features and might just want to get their simple game running or do not care about iOS or Android specific features. In this case Xamarin or any direct iOS SDK framework is total overkill and you will never need it. That is why we will provide alternative solutions in the future for less cost. If Xamarin was cheap we would not even consider other options, but currently Xamarin can be a bit expensive both for single users and for companies.

We will provide more details about the other solutions we provide in 2012. The Delta Engine is pretty open and all of the platform modules are completely modular and can be exchanged very easily by us. In addition we are working on providing our own cross-compilers we have worked on a few years ago (but stopped since Mono seemed to be an easier option at the time) plus there are other companies providing different ways to get .NET code on Android and iOS, which works fine as well (a few weeks ago I was visiting one of such companies and we tried porting a few files from the Delta Engine, which amazingly worked quite well, but huge amounts of work are left to get this done for every single file and every use-case and currently we have lots of other TODOs first).

Hope that helps to understand the direction we are heading :)
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Offline saviilsy  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, November 8, 2011 8:10:15 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Benjamin Nitschke (DeltaEngine) Go to Quoted Post

Again, we are fully commited to Xamarin and everything in our engine works fine with MonoTouch and Mono for Android. We just don't think Xamarin is the right solution for every single user of the Delta Engine. Many users will not require all the Xamarin features and might just want to get their simple game running or do not care about iOS or Android specific features. In this case Xamarin or any direct iOS SDK framework is total overkill and you will never need it. That is why we will provide alternative solutions in the future for less cost. If Xamarin was cheap we would not even consider other options, but currently Xamarin can be a bit expensive both for single users and for companies.

We will provide more details about the other solutions we provide in 2012. The Delta Engine is pretty open and all of the platform modules are completely modular and can be exchanged very easily by us. In addition we are working on providing our own cross-compilers we have worked on a few years ago (but stopped since Mono seemed to be an easier option at the time) plus there are other companies providing different ways to get .NET code on Android and iOS, which works fine as well (a few weeks ago I was visiting one of such companies and we tried porting a few files from the Delta Engine, which amazingly worked quite well, but huge amounts of work are left to get this done for every single file and every use-case and currently we have lots of other TODOs first).

Hope that helps to understand the direction we are heading :)


I think it is beyond great that You actually think what is the best for indies in all perspectives including the money one. And I know we we're the ones that cried over this since Xamarin IS expensive.

I concern however is the performance if using other than Xamarin products (this is because I haven't tried or heard any from the other alternatives). When I tested with Mono, the new GC seemed to be fine tuned for small object creation etc which are critical in game development (also with the vectorized constructs in assembly etc). I hope the alternatives perform as well (or better as we would like to hope) as Mono, other than that I guess there is no worries, I think nobody cares what the core is if we can just compile and forget :) Also the sheer cross platformeness in mono (ps3, wii, mobiles + desktops) is a trait I'd like to see in Delta Engine. So basically, I think the large price tag of Xamarin products would suffice for me at least (not rich tho) if I were assured that my apps performs great and stable across all platform I could think of. Creating a game in DE keeps You coding primarly in Windows, so when the game would be about ready, I think one should think whether to actually buy those cross platform licenses(is the game THAT good to throw out the money).

And I am not a spoke person for Xamarin, I have just learned and got accustomed with the small quirks and benefits from Mono platform that I'd like to keep :)

And I worry about the other platforms performance because I long ago developed a game in Java and used AOT compiler (not named AOT back then) from Execelsior Jet (or something similar) that compiled the JAR straight to exe. It seemed fine at first, all the little tests I made with basic algos performed great, but when I added a game rendering and logic with more heavy use of objects, the performance was abysmal. I had to dump the whole idea and hope Sun would create a more stable AOT for Java.

All in all, I see a great road ahead for DE no matter what You choose to do Smile
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Offline elasto  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, November 8, 2011 8:41:08 AM(UTC)
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I think all of us just have to be patient and realise that this is still relatively early in the roadmap for DE. The end of Beta is still the best part of a year away!

The important thing from our point of view is that the hard part is done in that the DE team have a product that can already compile to all these platforms in house - what they are mostly working on now is making it all smooth and automated for people outside of their in-house team (ie us) to use.

And, I agree, the fact they aren't simply slapping a one-price-fits-all licencing model on it is great; and the fact that they are considering restarting work on their own cross-compilers is also great (assuming they aren't taking on more than they can chew!)
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Offline Benjamin  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, November 8, 2011 10:04:28 AM(UTC)
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Actually from what we have experienced and tested (very limited research however) performance is much better when not using any GC, especially inside the game loop. This is what the Delta Engine tries to do anyway (even in normal .NET on the desktop). Xamarin is not at all optimized for game development and we have made many improvements and even hacks over the years to achieve better performance.

So I don't think the argument will ever be "is Xamarin faster than solution Y". The argument will be 100% Xamarin has feature X, Y and Z, but other solution only has feature X, which might be enough for most people Cool
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Offline bfox  
#14 Posted : Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:51:48 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Benjamin Nitschke (DeltaEngine) Go to Quoted Post
Little update about the current progress: We still have some bugs open we like to fix, especially with the new content format and build platforms. So the release will take a few more days, sorry!

some news about date?Mellow
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Offline Benjamin  
#15 Posted : Friday, November 11, 2011 7:40:46 AM(UTC)
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Yes, we are almost done (wp7 works, 95% bugs are fixed, about 100 new features are done, etc.) and plan to release v0.9.1 this week. After that we have also plans to switch to nightly releases to avoid having to wait for fixes so long. I will also post more details about upcoming plans.
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Offline bfox  
#16 Posted : Friday, November 11, 2011 7:59:05 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Benjamin Nitschke (DeltaEngine) Go to Quoted Post
Yes, we are almost done (wp7 works, 95% bugs are fixed, about 100 new features are done, etc.) and plan to release v0.9.1 this week. After that we have also plans to switch to nightly releases to avoid having to wait for fixes so long. I will also post more details about upcoming plans.

nightly releases ThumpUp
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Offline vickfl  
#17 Posted : Friday, November 11, 2011 11:22:44 AM(UTC)
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Yeah, nightly releases would be a lot better than this as you don't stick to your release dates ;-)
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Offline Benjamin  
#18 Posted : Friday, November 11, 2011 11:36:59 AM(UTC)
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Yes, and currently we have too many other projects going on to even get close to our original planing. We think it is better to provide some transparency with Nightly Releases and a better roadmap, so everyone knows what we are working on and won't be disappointed when feature x/y is suddenly not there ^^
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Offline MODTHEMOD  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:33:24 AM(UTC)
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Program: Delta.Tools.Launcher v0.9.0.0
Modules: Graphic=OpenTK, Input=Windows, Audio=OpenTK, Video=, Physics=
Start Time: 2011-11-15 04:20:23
Platform: Windows, 2 CPU Cores, 32 bit, Windows Vista v6002 Service Pack 2, Resolution: 1024, 768
User: RICHARDSON (RICHARDSON-PC)

00.062 Unable to connect to server: DeltaEngine.net:800
02:07.883 Warning: XmlNode.FromFile() - Couldn't load XML file 'C:\Users\RICHARDSON\Desktop\DeltaEngine0.9.0\Engine\Tests\Delta.Engine.Tests.csproj' because of reason:
Could not find a part of the path 'C:\Users\RICHARDSON\Desktop\DeltaEngine0.9.0\Engine\Tests\Delta.Engine.Tests.csproj'.
at Delta.Utilities.Xml.XmlNode.FromFile(System.String xmlFilePath, System.Boolean autoSetNamespaceOnChildren, System.String& error)
at Delta.Utilities.Xml.XmlNode.FromFile(System.String xmlFilePath)
at Delta.Utilities.Tools.VSProjectHelper.GetActiveOutputPath(System.String csprojFilePath)
at Delta.Tools.LauncherLibrary.LauncherControl.GetProjectEntryPoints(System.String projectFilePath, System.String& error)
at Delta.Tools.LauncherLibrary.LauncherControl.aVrVxlhAAy()
at Delta.Tools.LauncherLibrary.LauncherControl.Ck0VWb3dxV(Delta.Tools.ServicesLibrary.ProjectInfo )
at System.Delegate.DynamicInvokeImpl(System.Object[] args)
at Delta.Tools.Launcher.App.Main()

02:07.884 Warning: The given C# project file path 'C:\Users\RICHARDSON\Desktop\DeltaEngine0.9.0\Engine\Tests\Delta.Engine.Tests.csproj' is not a valid VisualStudio project file, will abort now.
at Delta.Utilities.Tools.VSProjectHelper.GetActiveOutputPath(System.String csprojFilePath)
at Delta.Tools.LauncherLibrary.LauncherControl.GetProjectEntryPoints(System.String projectFilePath, System.String& error)
at Delta.Tools.LauncherLibrary.LauncherControl.aVrVxlhAAy()
at Delta.Tools.LauncherLibrary.LauncherControl.Ck0VWb3dxV(Delta.Tools.ServicesLibrary.ProjectInfo )
at System.Delegate.DynamicInvokeImpl(System.Object[] args)
at Delta.Tools.Launcher.App.Main()

02:07.949 BuildError: 'Failed to find entry points: The given project file path 'C:\Users\RICHARDSON\Desktop\DeltaEngine0.9.0\Engine\Tests\Delta.Engine.Tests.csproj' is not a valid VisualStudio project file or it's messed up.'
02:18.204 Error: Fatal Error: Unhandled exception occurred (Application is terminated, we cannot recover!): System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
at Delta.Tools.LauncherLibrary.LauncherControl.tebVbYtgZH(Object , MouseButtonEventArgs )
at System.Windows.Input.MouseButtonEventArgs.InvokeEventHandler(Delegate genericHandler, Object genericTarget)
at System.Windows.RoutedEventArgs.InvokeHandler(Delegate handler, Object target)
at System.Windows.RoutedEventHandlerInfo.InvokeHandler(Object target, RoutedEventArgs routedEventArgs)
at System.Windows.EventRoute.InvokeHandlersImpl(Object source, RoutedEventArgs args, Boolean reRaised)
at System.Windows.UIElement.RaiseEventImpl(DependencyObject sender, RoutedEventArgs args)
at System.Windows.UIElement.RaiseEvent(RoutedEventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Controls.Control.OnMouseDoubleClick(MouseButtonEventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Controls.Control.HandleDoubleClick(Object sender, MouseButtonEventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Input.MouseButtonEventArgs.InvokeEventHandler(Delegate genericHandler, Object genericTarget)
at System.Windows.RoutedEventArgs.InvokeHandler(Delegate handler, Object target)
at System.Windows.RoutedEventHandlerInfo.InvokeHandler(Object target, RoutedEventArgs routedEventArgs)
at System.Windows.EventRoute.InvokeHandlersImpl(Object source, RoutedEventArgs args, Boolean reRaised)
at System.Windows.UIElement.ReRaiseEventAs(DependencyObject sender, RoutedEventArgs args, RoutedEvent newEvent)
at System.Windows.UIElement.OnMouseDownThunk(Object sender, MouseButtonEventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Input.MouseButtonEventArgs.InvokeEventHandler(Delegate genericHandler, Object genericTarget)
at System.Windows.RoutedEventArgs.InvokeHandler(Delegate handler, Object target)
at System.Windows.RoutedEventHandlerInfo.InvokeHandler(Object target, RoutedEventArgs routedEventArgs)
at System.Windows.EventRoute.InvokeHandlersImpl(Object source, RoutedEventArgs args, Boolean reRaised)
at System.Windows.UIElement.RaiseEventImpl(DependencyObject sender, RoutedEventArgs args)
at System.Windows.UIElement.RaiseTrustedEvent(RoutedEventArgs args)
at System.Windows.UIElement.RaiseEvent(RoutedEventArgs args, Boolean trusted)
at System.Windows.Input.InputManager.ProcessStagingArea()
at System.Windows.Input.InputManager.ProcessInput(InputEventArgs input)
at System.Windows.Input.InputProviderSite.ReportInput(InputReport inputReport)
at System.Windows.Interop.HwndMouseInputProvider.ReportInput(IntPtr hwnd, InputMode mode, Int32 timestamp, RawMouseActions actions, Int32 x, Int32 y, Int32 wheel)
at System.Windows.Interop.HwndMouseInputProvider.FilterMessage(IntPtr hwnd, WindowMessage msg, IntPtr wParam, IntPtr lParam, Boolean& handled)
at System.Windows.Interop.HwndSource.InputFilterMessage(IntPtr hwnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wParam, IntPtr lParam, Boolean& handled)
at MS.Win32.HwndWrapper.WndProc(IntPtr hwnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wParam, IntPtr lParam, Boolean& handled)
at MS.Win32.HwndSubclass.DispatcherCallbackOperation(Object o)
at System.Windows.Threading.ExceptionWrapper.InternalRealCall(Delegate callback, Object args, Int32 numArgs)
at MS.Internal.Threading.ExceptionFilterHelper.TryCatchWhen(Object source, Delegate method, Object args, Int32 numArgs, Delegate catchHandler)
at System.Windows.Threading.Dispatcher.InvokeImpl(DispatcherPriority priority, TimeSpan timeout, Delegate method, Object args, Int32 numArgs)
at MS.Win32.HwndSubclass.SubclassWndProc(IntPtr hwnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wParam, IntPtr lParam)
at MS.Win32.UnsafeNativeMethods.DispatchMessage(MSG& msg)
at System.Windows.Threading.Dispatcher.PushFrameImpl(DispatcherFrame frame)
at System.Windows.Threading.Dispatcher.PushFrame(DispatcherFrame frame)
at System.Windows.Application.RunDispatcher(Object ignore)
at System.Windows.Application.RunInternal(Window window)
at System.Windows.Application.Run(Window window)
at Delta.Tools.Launcher.App.Main()
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Offline Benjamin  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:18:26 PM(UTC)
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Thanks for the bug report, we are actually testing the Launcher and ContentManager right now and will have a release soon (plus starting with Nightly releases finally).

You can fix this issue yourself if you just delete the local "Engine" folder in your Launcher directory, which was created because of another bug with not changing paths when switching to the ContentManager tool!

Stay tuned for the v0.9.1 release Cool
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Offline Stormtek  
#21 Posted : Thursday, November 17, 2011 11:15:36 AM(UTC)
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I want to start a new project for WP7 and I'd like to test Delta Engine. Should I wait for the v0.9.1 release or start directly with the v0.9.0 release?
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Offline saviilsy  
#22 Posted : Thursday, November 17, 2011 11:48:15 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Stormtek Games Go to Quoted Post
I want to start a new project for WP7 and I'd like to test Delta Engine. Should I wait for the v0.9.1 release or start directly with the v0.9.0 release?


IMO, I'd wait for 0.9.1 since 0.9.0 contains lots of build errors at the moment(compared to 0.8.6 which had none). But You can familiarize yourself with the engine and docs while You wait - I have no idea when 0.9.1 will be released...
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Offline Benjamin  
#23 Posted : Thursday, November 17, 2011 12:48:31 PM(UTC)
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Actually v0.9.1 is ready and we have been testing it all week. More information will follow when the release is done (hopefully in a few hours, also explaining all the delays ^^). Stay tuned once again.
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Offline Benjamin  
#24 Posted : Friday, November 18, 2011 7:21:20 PM(UTC)
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Version 0.9.1 is currently being pushed to the codeplex right now. Source Code and Binary downloads will be available shortly too. All the rest of the news will be in the extra thread about the upcoming nightly releases Cool
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